Joel: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Marketing Unleashed podcast. I’m Joel, I’m here with Jamie, Rachel, and Jill. We’ve got a full house today. We’re going to be talking about product packaging and how it affects sales. Let’s just get started here. Do you girls think that the primary purpose of packaging is to protect and secure the product?

Rachel: Well, that’s the main goal of packaging, but it’s obviously become so much more. It’s like an outfit.

Joel: Well, right, so if we go back, let’s just say like 50 years, I mean, everything was pretty much in boxes and very boring packaging, right?

Rachel: Right. It was a plain brown box or white box. It was-

Jill: Serving a purpose.

Rachel: Right.

Joel: Right. Where now today that’s not really the case anymore.

Rachel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). The package really gives you an idea of what’s inside the box.

Joel: Right. Well, and also it helps draw the customer’s attention. I mean, whenever you’re walking down an aisle of any type of retail environment you have to have something that catches somebody’s eye, and the packaging can be… whether if it’s a box with crazy graphics or if it’s a shrink wrapped type of… I’m trying to think of what would be shrink wrapped?

Jill: Like bread?

Rachel: Any type of utensil like scissors, something weird shaped.

Jill: Exacto knives.

Joel: Yeah, exactly, or the clamshell type packaging and the plastic where you could see the product through a clear window. I mean-

Jill: Where you slice your hand upon opening. I always cut my hands on those things.

Joel: Yeah, we’ll get into that.

Rachel: Oh yeah. I [inaudible 00:01:50].

Joel: Yeah, we will get into that. I mean definitely I think that packaging has to help demonstrate the product in a way. People have to be able to see what the product looks like, potentially touch it. A lot of packaging now has that little window where you can feel the fabric or feel the grip.

Rachel: Right. Depending on what it is, you always have to think about what is going to be the best type of package for the product. Budget comes into play, marketing comes into play, and you really have to think about the customer. A lot of things come into play when you’re talking about packaging. But I think the main thing is, what is going to really catch the person’s eye? What’s really going to sell this product? What is going to draw the eye? It has to fit the product too. If it’s something elegant, the package has to follow suit. If it’s utilitarian, the package needs to follow suit.

Joel: Right. Well, going back in the day, again, 50 years ago, you had… Lets just take a trip down the cereal aisle, because that’s something that everybody understands and knows. If you take a trip down that aisle, you had two types of cereal, or three types. Definitely less than 10. I mean, right?

Rachel: I don’t know.

Joel: I mean we weren’t alive 50 years ago, but what we know from historical data-

Rachel: I would think they were more than-

Jill: I think there was more. I saw [inaudible 00:03:16].

Rachel: Yeah.

Joel: How many do you think there were though?

Jill: I mean, I think everything, a lot of things that are out now were out then.

Joel: But what I’m saying-

Rachel: You were just older.

Joel: Right, but to my point though, you would have one type of Cornflakes, you’d have one type of Frosted Flakes, you’d have one Froot Loops or whatever. You walk down the cereal aisle now you have five different kinds of Froot Loops, you have five different kinds of cornflakes. That’s where the packaging comes into play. How do you convince somebody to pick your type of product over another type of product that’s the exact same basically?

Rachel: Well that’s when your whole marketing campaign behind it comes into play.

Joel: Right, and also messaging on the packaging as well.

Rachel: Yeah.

Joel: [crosstalk 00:04:03]-

Rachel: You have to think about the design. It has to be able to work for different flavors and things like that. It has to be versatile.

Joel: Right. Now, how about providing the information of problem solution on the packaging? I mean, is that really important or is it more… How can we grab the attention and try to just get you to stop in an aisle? Well, think about the made for TV, or as seen on TV stuff that if you’re walking down the aisle or on an endcap, they always have problem solutions. Always the person that can’t open up a jug of milk like Joey of Friends.

Rachel: I’m thinking of, you seen it? The neck basket.

Jill: Oh yeah.

Joel: Yeah. It’s always stuff like that, which, sorry, to the older generation, but that’s usually who they’re targeting. People who can’t do simple things like turn on the TV properly or whatever.

Rachel: Yeah. There are so many out there.

Joel: But that’s where I’m going with-

Rachel: The Squatty Potty.

Joel: Right, which… Godsend by the way.

Rachel: Do you have one, Joel?

Joel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It works.

Rachel: Does it?

Joel: Yeah. Yup. That’s to go too deep into the weeds.

Rachel: I don’t think that… Was that an as seen on TV thing?

Joel: I don’t remember.

Rachel: I don’t remember either-

Joel: I don’t know, but they definitely had great online commercials.

Rachel: They did. They did, because I’m trying to think. I watched… It was on truTV, but they basically just made fun of all of those as seen on TV commercials. It was like the best of the worst, and I remember that one. There were so many of them though. I can’t think of them, but yeah. But I remember there was always a section in Walgreens and Walmart of all of the, as seen on TV products and they were just all there. It was like, “Oh, well they’re cheap now. Maybe I should just try one.”

Joel: Well, whenever, I’m trying to think of Christmas gifts for, I’m sorry mom, but for you, for my mom-

Rachel: The Slap Chop.

Joel: … for Judy. Whenever I’m trying to think of things for Judy, it’s like those as seen on TV things usually cater to the older people. Last year I bought her this thing that helps her put on her socks.

Rachel: Yes. Those.

Joel: She’s getting up there in age. That kind of stuff. That’s what I look for, a problem solution. I like that on that type of packaging.

Jill: I was reading something about how it’s become a lot more about the aesthetics these days because of social media.

Rachel: Oh that’s a good point.

Jill: There was a study, I’m just reading off of this infographic, that 74% of young adults are more likely to share a photo of product packaging through social media if it’s a-

Joel: Really?

Jill: Yeah.

Joel: Because-

Rachel: Right, because it’s pretty-

Jill: 40% of overall consumers would share photos of packaging on social media if it is interesting or gift-like, or-

Joel: Oh, if the packaging is interesting?

Jill: Right.

Rachel: Yeah. I mean that makes sense. Anything for the Gram. If it’s a good looking package, they’re going to share it-

Jill: Actually, I’ve done that before I’m embarrassed to say. I got this lip balm and I just really liked, well it was more the graphics I guess in the packaging, but I posted it because I liked it.

Rachel: It’s cool graphics.

Jill: Yeah.

Joel: Okay… Sorry, I almost called you Raquel again.

Rachel: That’s right. You can be known as Raquel on the-

Jill: No [crosstalk 00:07:36].

Joel: Rachel-

Rachel: … on the podcast.

Jill: [crosstalk 00:07:38]. No.

Joel: Sorry, Rachel. With your Etsy stuff and your online selling, or even whenever you go to these art festivals and you sell, do you use packaging?

Jill: I usually wrap it in tissue paper and put it in a craft paper bag. But I mean, I have labels on all of my stuff, but at the moment I don’t have any cool packaging, but I wish I did, but maybe someday.

Joel: It’s coming.

Jill: I’ve already planned it out, but I just can’t really afford it right now.

Rachel: Whenever you package it up and ship it to people, do you brand-

Joel: The envelope or anything?

Rachel: Yeah, with stickers-

Joel: The [crosstalk 00:08:18] carton?

Jill: No, I mean, I have a sticker that I put on the products or a tag that I put on the shirts. I think I tried doing the packaging with the shipper, but I just quit. I got a bunch at once and I just [inaudible 00:08:34]. But I do, that’s a goal of mine [inaudible 00:08:37] to make [crosstalk 00:08:37]-

Rachel: Because I’m thinking of all of the subscription services now, the Fresh Box and the-

Jill: The Epsy boxes-

Rachel: That’s what I want to do someday. Yeah. The makeup, the BoxyCharm and the [crosstalk 00:08:52]-

Jamie: Looking at Birchbox, [crosstalk 00:08:54]-

Rachel: Yeah, Birchbox. Those. I mean those really come in some cute little boxes that have great graphics and it makes it fun to open. They’re really thinking about what the consumer sees whenever they get that box in the mail-

Jill: And they’re going to share it.

Rachel: Yeah. They do-

Jill: Birchbox is makeup, is that what it is?

Rachel: I think it’s makeup and skincare.

Jill: Because it says Instagram has 180,000 photos tagged with Birchbox, so you’re not going to be posting your utilitarian-

Joel: UPS [crosstalk 00:09:27]-

Jill: Clamshell-

Rachel: Yeah, because with subscription boxes like that and then there’s the one that you get the fitness stuff. What is it?

Jill: FabFitFun.

Rachel: Yeah, that one. That one. You-

Joel: Wait, that’s a name, FabFitFun?

Rachel: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jill: Pretty awful name.

Joel: Yeah, it’s a lot of… I don’t know.

Rachel: You see, I mean, I learned about all of those on social media because they’re endorsed by celebrities and bloggers and things like that. You see it on social media, they’re showing you, “This is what I got in my box,” and the box is so huge-

Jill: Maybe it’s just us here who work in the marketing, but I know personally I’m a fool for good packaging.

Rachel: Oh, me too.

Joel: Yeah, I like it. Yeah.

Jill: I was just actually looking at something at Target. It was very plain and simple, but I was… I thought it did a good job of representing what the product was, which was pretty basic without all the crazy graphics. It was like two-color, whatever. But I just liked it. I don’t know if it’s any good, but I like the way it looks so. I’m one of those people that judges-

Joel: I [crosstalk 00:10:32] too-

Jill: … a book by its cover.

Joel: It’s very weird for me to admit this, but whenever I go into a Target or something, it’s actually interesting. I usually don’t walk down the aisle but I actually look down the aisle of the makeup because the packaging of makeup, I think, is interesting. At least to me it is, because it’s not a product I buy. At least not admittedly.

Jill: Do you have a secret life?

Joel: No secret life that I’m willing to admit publicly yet. No. But it’s just interesting because it’s not something that I ever buy. It’s, I don’t know, mysterious to me in a way even though it’s out in the open and you can just walk down the aisle. But I think makeup or sometimes even baby stuff, kid stuff. I obviously don’t have to buy that stuff, but I like to look at the way they package different things. I think really in the makeup, really just in the beauty area, because there are so many competitive products. I mean it’s like one of the most competitive areas of the store. I just think that they have to one-up each other.

Jill: That reminds me that, speaking of Target again, they’ve come out with a bunch of new Target lines of makeup, and skincare, and beauty stuff. I noticed, I ordered some eye cream and I thought it was cool because it came in a bag.

Rachel: Oh really?

Jill: Yeah. A little plastic… It wasn’t thin plastic, it was thicker, and it had the Ziploc taper and it was a little tube in there-

Rachel: That’s nice.

Jill: I don’t know if they’re trying to, if that reduces.

Rachel: Well, yeah, I read flexible packaging is getting bigger now instead of big boxes, just something that’s doesn’t take up so much space.

Jill: Right. I’ve never noticed anything beauty coming in a bag before, so I thought that was interesting.

Joel: Wait, what kind of bag? I don’t…

Jill: The eye cream was in a regular tube, but that was inside a plastic-

Joel: Oh. Instead of a little box it was in a bag.

Jill: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joel: A pouch.

Jill: Right.

Joel: Okay. I got you. I wonder if people, and-

Jill: Clear plastic.

Joel: … if it’s also easier to recycle that than a cardboard box-

Jill: Maybe. Easy to open, definitely.

Joel: That’s true. Yeah. I hate whenever-

Jill: The sticker, that you have to slice it-

Joel: That’s what I was going to say.

Jill: When you have one tiny thing and it comes in a huge box.

Rachel: Amazon.

Jill: … get rid of the box, [inaudible 00:13:01] dark up in your basement.

Rachel: Amazon is notorious for that. You get the tiniest thing and they just ship it in a giant box with a bunch of paper in there.

Joel: Yeah. I had that happen to me. Actually, so in my failed attempt to learn guitar for like the 100th time I ordered extra picks off Amazon. Obviously everybody knows how small picks are. They sent a box that was probably, it could fit a decent sized book in it, and it had all kinds of paper in it and one little thing of picks. I’m like, “Well this is a waste.”

Rachel: Yeah-

Jill: [crosstalk 00:13:36] throw it away.

Joel: I was like, “I’m not even sure what’s in here,” because it took longer. Well I was out of town and then I came back and I’m like, “Oh, I ordered a few things,” so I expected them to all be in one box, but they weren’t, they sent me my picks separately and I was like, “This is stupid.”

Rachel: Yeah. Well that’s one thing I did read that manufacturers are being more concerned about the environment and considering their packaging, and being recyclable and stuff like that. There’s a water… it’s the company that makes coconut water and they’re coming [crosstalk 00:14:16]-

Jill: Oh yeah. The boxed water. Whatever.

Rachel: Well that might be something else. They’re coming out with a water that’s in aluminum and so you can recycle-

Jill: Like a soda can?

Rachel: Well, it’s a big tall bottle.

Jamie: Like a beer bottle?

Rachel: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jill: Interesting.

Rachel: Instead of plastic bottles. People are thinking about that.

Joel: Let’s talk about the messaging on the package itself. I mean, what should be included?

Jill: Depends on the product, for sure.

Joel: Let’s go-

Rachel: Obviously, real nice and big what the product is. You need to be able to know what it is if the actual product isn’t obvious. I mean, if it’s in a box and you can’t see what the product is, depending on what it is, you need to be able to tell what the-

Joel: So, a lot of product images or-

Rachel: Or the name of it at least.

Joel: Yeah. Right, and I would say definitely description [crosstalk 00:15:14]-

Jill: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:15:14]-

Rachel: [crosstalk 00:15:14] description.

Joel: Yeah, yeah. If you’re not going to show the product in some way, you got to describe it. Although-

Rachel: Brand.

Joel: … it’s really hard to find products now that you can’t actually see somehow through the packaging, or through a little window, or if it’s a plastic clamshell or whatever. I don’t know, it’s really unusual now, but-

Rachel: Well, think about food. We were talking about cereal earlier.

Joel: Yeah. You don’t see cereal through the box.

Rachel: Right.

Joel: They have really colorful and good images on the box and they always have their little mascot too.

Rachel: You know right away what you’re looking for. You have it in your head. “I’m looking for Trix.” You look for that mascot.

Joel: Right. Yeah. The rabbit, right?

Rachel: Yeah. You’re looking for that mascot.

Joel: Yeah. Yeah. I never really ate the brand name cereal. We always got the generic stuff-

Rachel: Oh, you did?

Joel: Yeah. Yeah. It was like, “Silly gopher, this cereal’s for us.” Instead of the rabbit.

Rachel: Then you were looking for the bags and not the box.

Joel: Basically. Yeah.

Jill: Malt-O-Meal.

Joel: Yeah.

Rachel: Malt-O-Meal.

Joel: Yeah, yeah. We didn’t eat Cheerios. We ate Heerios.

Jill: We eat the [crosstalk 00:16:31] brand. It is, the honey nut Cheerios of [inaudible 00:16:34] are way better than the real ones-

Rachel: Really?

Jill: … I think.

Joel: Really?

Jill: Yeah.

Rachel: I like Cheerios.

Joel: It’s so funny because a lot of times the company will actually private label for-

Jill: Yeah, it’s usually the same.

Joel: Yeah. It’s pretty much the same-

Jill: But the private labels says [inaudible 00:16:49] uglier-

Rachel: Because it’s cheap.

Joel: They changed the formula a little bit so it doesn’t taste exactly the same. They may not use the best quality. It might be like the reject raisins that they-

Rachel: The reject raisins.

Joel: Whatever. The misshaped pebbles from the Fruity Pebbles. Whatever. I don’t know how they actually do it, but a lot of times it comes from the same manufacturing plant, so you’d think it was at least the same product for the most part, for some products. It’s like whenever people are like, “Oh, I don’t buy store brand because it’s such low quality.” Do you think Target and Walmart are setting up manufacturing facilities to make canned goods?

Jill: Sometimes there is a big difference though, and you just have to try it out and find out. We used the target baby shampoo and it looks exactly like the Johnson’s and I feel like-

Rachel: It wasn’t as good.

Jill: It was a different smell. I don’t know. It just wasn’t the same.

Joel: Well, I don’t think they can put the same exact product.

Jill: Right. But it looks… the packaging is-

Joel: Similar?

Jill: Same bottle shape, same color. It says, “Compare to whatever,” and then…

Joel: But the Target brand is like, they put one extra thing or don’t put an extra thing in or something. I don’t know how exactly it’s done, but they change it chemically somehow.

Rachel: I always wonder that about the medicines.

Jill: Yes, I was just going to say that. Like Tylenol-

Rachel: Because it’s the same ingredients, but I’m like, “Okay, so-”

Jill: So what’s the difference?

Jamie: What’s happening-

Rachel: Yeah, what is the difference?

Joel: Yeah. I always buy the generic medicine-

Rachel: I do too-

Jill: [crosstalk 00:18:31] too.

Joel: I don’t care. I’m not paying $20 for NyQuil when I could pay four. Right. It’s stupid.

Rachel: Yeah. What is the big difference? If they’re the same ingredients, is it just poor quality stuff? What is different here?

Joel: Well, a lot of-

Jill: The vitamins are not the same.

Joel: Well vitamins yes because that’s-

Jill: The gummy vitamins I take, the Target ones taste so much better than the real brand I think.

Joel: But I think a lot of that… I mean it goes back to packaging and marketing in general because the store brand, it’s already there because you’re there. That’s also the difference between bottom shelf and top shelf, and in a lot of stores.

Rachel: Yeah, so we know that. But I’m just wondering about the quality of the ingredients. How [crosstalk 00:19:18] quality-

Joel: It’s [crosstalk 00:19:19]. It just depends on what you’re talking about. Medicine, I don’t think it matters because I don’t want to taste the medicine anyway. But cereal maybe there is a difference in vegetable or whatever. The shampoo, the effects might be different. How much of the company story do you think it’s important to put on the packaging?

Rachel: I think depending on how high quality of a product it is. I mean-

Jill: If you’re spending a lot more-

Rachel: Right, because if we’re talking about the iPhone, we all know we keep the iPhone box because it’s a very nice package or even our iPad box.

Joel: Well and don’t… I mean, so, I don’t have an iPhone because I’m not special.

Rachel: Okay. What did your… You have an Android?

Joel: Yeah. And it pretty much comes in the same-

Rachel: Same type of-

Joel: … style box. Very nice, well designed box. But that’s where I keep the instruction manual that I’ll never look at. That’s where I keep all the little accessories that I never use, and yeah, I keep it for the life of the phone and probably years after. I get rid of the phone, which is stupid, but I do it. But it’s weird. You’re right. In that way I do keep the box, but do I care about the story?

Jill: The Apple box has nothing on it. Make sure [inaudible 00:20:30]-

Rachel: Exactly, that’s a good point. There isn’t much on it because-

Joel: Oh, it’s minimalist for sure. Yeah.

Rachel: … you know the story and that shows you-

Jill: And you probably looked it up online already-

Rachel: You know the power of Apple’s story-

Jill: I mean, you probably did a little research yourself before going and spending 1200 bucks on something.

Joel: Well, so you said if it’s more expensive, but what about a… I don’t know, I’m trying to think of a product that has a really good story behind it, but it’s actually cheap. The company does good in the world or something, and that’s one of their selling points.

Jill: Like the, what is it called, the Seventh Generation [crosstalk 00:21:10]-

Rachel: Or is that clean ingredients, organic, green-

Joel: Yeah, exactly.

Jill: Where you’re paying more and you want to know-

Rachel: Why.

Joel: Well, maybe it’s like Simple Green I think has their story. You’re familiar with Simple Green, it’s a cleaning product.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah, I’m familiar. The [inaudible 00:21:30] alternative?

Joel: Yeah. That type of product, I mean it’s still relatively inexpensive. It might be more expensive in the category, but it’s inexpensive from your budget perspective. I mean, it’s six bucks compared to…

Rachel: But don’t you, with that, you buy one bottle of concentrate.

Joel: Yes. You do.

Rachel: Okay, because that’s the same thing with the Mrs. Meyers. You do the same thing. You just buy one bottle of concentrate and then you just keep. That saves you money and it helps with buying more plastic bottles.

Joel: Right. Paul Newman salad dressing, the proceeds go to a charity. I think on the back of the bottle there’s a story of that. Yeah. What is it? Newman’s Own? Something like that? That’s what it’s called?

Rachel: I didn’t know that-

Jill: [crosstalk 00:22:16] pizza and it’s good pizza.

Joel: Oh, they have pizza too?

Jill: Yeah, frozen pizza.

Joel: Yeah. That’s one product example where their story actually helps them sell because-

Rachel: Like TOMS Shoes then, right?

Joel: Right. TOMS Shoes. Yeah. That’s a little bit higher I guess-

Jill: But does that say anything on the packaging?

Rachel: I don’t know.

Joel: I don’t know. [crosstalk 00:22:33]-

Jill: I think it just says, “One for one,” or something like that.

Rachel: Everybody knows that store because they do that in their marketing campaign.

Joel: Yeah. Through their commercials and all that. They make that very well known.

Jill: I think an example of something where you’d want to stand there and actually read the packaging is maybe again, back to the beauty products. Especially if you’ve ever looked at skincare-

Joel: And shampoo stuff.

Jill: … because there’s so many options and it can get pricey.

Joel: Do you mean like, you want something that wasn’t tested on animals? That kind of mentality or…

Jill: Just what it’s supposed to do.

Rachel: Yeah, instructions sometimes-

Jill: Or just, “This makes your skin luminous, and glowing,” and this and that-

Rachel: Is this for you skin type?

Jill: Stuff that you’re going to drop a few more dollars on. I think you would actually stand there and read what it’s all about.

Joel: Right. But that would be the problem solution, not so much the story of the company.

Rachel: Yeah.

Jill: I guess story of the company more, I see that a lot on food.

Joel: I do too. Yeah-

Rachel: Yeah, I think you’re right.

Jill: Stuff that’s newer brands, I feel like, have to really put it out there.

Rachel: Right. They do.

Jill: I’ve seen it on this pancake mix-

Rachel: The Kodiak Cakes?

Jill: Yes.

Rachel: I was just thinking about that-

Jill: We eat that a lot and I sit there and lick the box and some granola. Some of those pricey granolas tell the story and-

Joel: Well, something that is probably not in our everyday thought process of food. Maybe, I don’t know-

Jill: Yeah, you see them a lot in new products I feel like, because they want you to think it’s coming from a smaller company-

Rachel: It’s coming from somebody’s backyard-

Jill: Someone’s [crosstalk 00:24:14] up in their kitchen.

Joel: It’s very holistic.

Jill: Yes, yes.

Rachel: Well, that Kodiak Cakes story pretty much was. I mean, those guys were making it-

Jill: Those are good.

Rachel: It’s their mom’s recipe, and they were on Shark Tank, or they were rejected on Shark Tank and then…

Joel: Maybe. It sounded familiar but I didn’t know what it was.

Jill: It’s just pancake and waffle mix [crosstalk 00:24:39] just add water-

Rachel: When I tried it, it turned out a disaster.

Joel: Is it different than Aunt Jemima’s?

Jill: You just add water. That’s it.

Rachel: And it has protein-

Jill: It’s got protein in it, and better ingredients. It’s not like, “What the heck is in Bisquick?” Who really knows?

Joel: Are you putting down Aunt Jemima?

Jill: She doesn’t make the mix-

Joel: Doesn’t she?

Jill: [crosstalk 00:25:00] put it on top.

Jamie: Yeah, I’m sure she does.

Rachel: She has a mix. She also has the syrup.

Joel: That’s right. No, that’s Mrs. Butterworth’s.

Jill: Aunt Jemima [crosstalk 00:25:05]-

Rachel: Didn’t Aunt Jemima have a syrup?

Jill: Yeah.

Rachel: I think she has a syrup.

Jill: Yeah, they both do.

Joel: I don’t know. That commercial used to freak me out. The Mrs. Butterworth’s. I’m like, “Man, that is weird that, that bottle is talking.

Jill: That’s an example of poor product usage. But it was an interesting package that you’ll never forget for [crosstalk 00:25:24]-

Joel: [crosstalk 00:25:24] yeah the-

Jill: Packaging yes.

Rachel: Mrs. Butterworth’s-

Joel: Yeah, the Mrs. Butterworth’s?

Jill: Commercial no.

Rachel: She came to life.

Jill: Good call back Rachel. Good call back. I like it-

Rachel: Then she came to life.

Jill: That is one of the most unique packages you’ll ever see.

Joel: That’s true.

Jill: The Mrs Butterworth’s.

Joel: That was actually where I was going to go. What types of packaging draws attention?

Jamie: Interesting shapes.

Joel: Well definitely interesting shapes like Mrs. Butterworth’s-

Rachel: Interesting artwork.

Jill: Artwork for sure.

Joel: Artwork.

Jill: For judgy people like me.

Joel: Well, but at the same time no, our phones and basically the technology area, it’s not interesting artwork. It’s minimalist.

Jill: But that is interesting.

Joel: I guess it can be-

Jill: It gives you a feeling of simple and that’s what you’re looking for usually-

Joel: Yeah. I mean, it’s slick. Slick in simplicity. Because nobody wants to open up a new package and spend 30 hours trying to figure out how to use it.

Jill: Yes. If you have complicated-looking packaging for something like a phone with words and arrows and whatever, all over it.

Joel: Words-

Rachel: Words and arrows.

Jill: I don’t know. Are you going to… I want plain and simple because, I don’t want to deal with my phone if it’s going to be complicated. I want easy, so the packaging looks easy.

Joel: That’s right. Has anybody ever opened up their phone and actually read the instructions?

Rachel: No.

Jamie: I don’t… No.

Jill: Yeah, I glanced at it but it doesn’t [crosstalk 00:26:47]-

Rachel: I usually just Google-

Jill: … much information anyways.

Joel: You just Google.

Rachel: Yeah.

Jill: Usually it just says press the button and it doesn’t really give you much else after that. It’s like you have to figure it out on your own.

Rachel: Because it’s very intuitive. I mean, as soon as you start setting it up, it’s just-

Joel: It does-

Jill: Bam, bam, bam.

Jamie: Next, next, next-

Rachel: It tells you what to do.

Joel: Right. But I remember one of my first computers, I mean, it felt like it took a whole day to set up-

Jill: [inaudible 00:27:12] those days are over.

Joel: But now whenever I buy a new computer it’s set up [crosstalk 00:27:17]-

Jill: You turn it on.

Joel: 10 minutes, it’s crazy.

Rachel: Yeah, it doesn’t even come with a manual, does it?

Joel: No, it doesn’t.

Rachel: I don’t think it does.

Joel: No, that’s-

Jill: Paperless. It’s all about the paperless.

Joel: That’s right. Okay, so bold and bright colors. Is that good on packaging? I mean obvious-

Rachel: It depends.

Joel: Obviously for-

Jill: Kids’ cereal. Yeah.

Joel: Kids’ cereal. Yeah. Or any kind of kids’ product really-

Rachel: Toys.

Jill: Mature women’s beauty products. No.

Jamie: They’re likely vintage and minimalist.

Rachel: Unless you want to be a clown.

Joel: What’s the best type of packaging color scheme for that?

Jill: Muted colors.

Joel: Muted?

Rachel: Well, okay. I love Too Faced, that’s one of my favorite cosmetic brands and they use very bold and bright colors.

Jill: That’s true.

Rachel: And that works for them. But-

Joel: But what’s their target? I mean is their target younger people?

Jill: Having more fun-

Rachel: But I love Kat Von D’s. But hers is always black because she’s a tattoo artist and she does all the artwork.

Jill: Or the Benefit Cosmetics. They’re very funny cartoons, comic looking-

Rachel: Oh, is it? I haven’t seen it-

Jill: Yeah.

Rachel: It totally varies. It depends on what kind of-

Jill: Demographic-

Rachel: … mood that you want to evoke with the product.

Jill: Too Faced is more fun.

Rachel: It’s very fun.

Jill: Right.

Joel: Perfect example. It caught my attention. I was looking for a new hand lotion, because my hands get very dry in the wintertime and fall. I’m walking down the aisle and this bright green, this lime green just directed my attention right toward it in a land of bottles of whites and tans and all that, and it was the O’Keefes-

Rachel: Oh yeah, that stuff is great.

Joel: Right. Yeah. I ended up buying it and it was like, “But that’s why,” because I had heard of it, but I didn’t know what it looked like in the package and then it just caught my attention, so I ended up buying it-

Rachel: Yeah, it stands out.

Jill: It does stand out. I personally don’t like it.

Jamie: Maybe you [crosstalk 00:29:17]-

Rachel: Oh, you don’t?

Jill: No, I don’t like the packaging.

Jamie: Yeah. It’s very industrial [crosstalk 00:29:22]-

Rachel: Because it’s for the working man’s hands.

Jill: [crosstalk 00:29:25] works. We have some at home that I didn’t purchase. My spouse did, and it’s sitting on our kitchen counter all the time and I wish it [inaudible 00:29:33] but-

Joel: I have it down in desk right now, because I’m just like, “This is where I spend-”

Jill: You know what it is when you’re in the aisle, you don’t even… you just tunnel vision right down to it-

Rachel: That’s probably why it’s so bright because I bet you the guys have it on the construction site, or they throw it in their tool box and they could see it-

Jill: Guys don’t want to search around for that stuff-

Rachel: Exactly. They don’t want to search around [crosstalk 00:29:53]-

Jill: … [crosstalk 00:29:53] stuff about it, right?

Joel: Actually I’m thinking, well probably that on the job site, but also for people like me who go-

Rachel: They don’t want to search around for it.

Joel: Who go-

Jill: I go, “Open that green bottle.”

Rachel: And you don’t want [inaudible 00:30:08] girly looking.

Joel: Well that’s true too, yeah. I mean, and I’m more like utility. It has to work for me. Whenever, on a rare occasion on like the Black Friday sales, I’ll go into a… What’s the, not Bed Bath & Beyond, but the Bath & Body works and there’s all kinds of people in there, mostly women and they’re… it’s chaotic and usually one of the very nice and friendly store associates will come and be like, “Do you need help?” And I’m like, “Yes, please.” I’ll have a list from my wife of things to buy because she has to work on Friday so she can’t get there in time, otherwise it’s all sold out by the end of the day. I’ll go in and be a nice husband and buy stuff for her [inaudible 00:30:50]. Sorry, but that’s the example because I have no idea what I’m doing in there. I don’t know how it’s categorized, I don’t know anything, and I feel like, at least for me, that’s whenever I walk into the lotion aisle. I’m like, “There’s 5,000 options. How do I know what is best for me?” That’s why I was just browsing-

Jill: Maybe you’ve seen the commercials too?

Joel: Of what?

Jill: The O’Keeffe’s, something-

Joel: Maybe, but I didn’t-

Rachel: You’ve seen one.

Joel: At the time, I didn’t associate any of the prior knowledge I had of it until I saw the packaging. It was the packaging that caught my attention and then I really honed in on it.

Rachel: Yup, so that’s a good example of great packaging.

Joel: Yeah. For that.

Rachel: For that.

Joel: For that specific product. Yeah.

Rachel: Yeah. There’s something else I wanted to bring up because this is something that my husband actually pointed out to me that we’ve noticed. Yogurt. There’s a ton of yogurt out there. Now, have you noticed that they have started branding certain yogurts more towards men?

Joel: We like yogurt too.

Jill: Which?

Rachel: It’s-

Jill: Is there one with a black-

Rachel: It’s funny-

Jill: … label? The Greek.

Rachel: Exactly.

Jill: Zero.

Jamie: Yeah.

Rachel: It’s Oikos Zero, so they’re starting to change up the packaging to appeal to men more, which I think is-

Jill: Weird.

Rachel: Odd. Yeah.

Joel: I [inaudible 00:32:12] yogurt, but I don’t… I mean-

Jill: If it’s got pictures of fruit on it.

Rachel: Do you gravitate more towards the packaging that is black? Because obviously-

Joel: Not specifically-

Jill: Like Dove for men.

Joel: Right, yeah.

Rachel: Then there’s the Dove for men.

Joel: No, for yogurt, I don’t think I do because I’m-

Jill: Is yogurt a feminine product?

Rachel: Well apparently-

Joel: Yeah, I think it is because it used to be marketed as a healthy choice.

Jill: [inaudible 00:32:41] ladies would bring in their lunch to the office?

Joel: Yeah, which let’s face it, as sexist as it is women and dieting are always put together like men never diet. Well that’s not true. Men diet, and it benefits them. Also yogurt’s really good for the stomach stuff.

Rachel: Yeah, for the gut.

Joel: Yeah, for the gut health.

Rachel: With the probiotics and all that-

Joel: Yeah, which is I guess somewhat new within the last 10 years. But like Jamie Lee Curtis, she used to do the-

Jill: Oh yeah. Activia.

Joel: Yeah, Activia which, that was all female-driven. I mean, I don’t think they were like, “Oh, hey guys-

Jill: Activio-

Joel: … here’s Jamie Lee Curtis telling you to go eat Activia.”

Rachel: It’ll make you poop.

Joel: I think that… I don’t know. I don’t really care. What I care more about in the yogurt section is, what’s just the plain yogurt? I don’t need the stuff with all-

Jill: The flavors-

Joel: … the added sugar and flavor and all that-

Rachel: Eww, just plain?

Joel: Just plain Greek yogurt.

Jill: I get plain too.

Joel: That’s all I want-

Jill: You add stuff to it.

Joel: You can add whatever you want.

Jill: Or you can use it as sour cream.

Joel: That’s what I-

Rachel: I use it as sour cream. Yeah.

Joel: That’s what I do most of the time.

Jill: Versatile.

Joel: Yeah. Yeah. I actually make dips with Weber spices-

Rachel: I make my own [inaudible 00:33:52] sauce.

Joel: Wait, did we hear that? With Weber spices.

Jamie: And seasonings.

Joel: Yes, Weber spices and seasonings, and Tones and all kinds of stuff.

Jill: Found at Sam’s Club.

Joel: Found at Sam’s club. Weber’s found-

Rachel: [crosstalk 00:34:06].

Joel: Weber’s found in a grocery store nearest to you.

Rachel: Okay. You don’t necessarily gravitate towards the products that are branded more for the men? Just because it’s-

Joel: Not in yogurt, but I definitely would, if I had to buy shampoo, I don’t have to, but if I had to-

Jill: Or body wash.

Joel: Yeah, exactly, body wash. I’d buy something that’s in a clear container and it’s blue because I don’t know, it feels less feminine. I don’t know. I shouldn’t care, but at the same time you do.

Jill: Maybe you use it every day. It’s sitting out in the open. I mean, in your bathroom-

Rachel: You don’t use your wife’s body wash?

Joel: No, no. Hell no-

Jill: [crosstalk 00:34:50].

Joel: Uh-uh (negative). No. Her stuff, her stuff. My stuff, my stuff-

Jill: I mean that depends on the fragrance too.

Joel: Well that’s true too.

Jill: You probably don’t like the same things.

Joel: Right. Well, mine’s Dial and I actually buy it at Sam’s Club in bulk because I’m more about… Again, I’m more utility than anything else. It’s got to work.

Rachel: You always have to think about that. You have to think about who your customer is. I guess that’s what these guys are really thinking about. They’re like, “All right, well let’s get guys thinking about yogurt more. We need to get this packaging to appeal to guys.”

Joel: Right, it’s…

Rachel: It’s just-

Jill: Does it cost more?

Rachel: I don’t think so.

Joel: It’d be funny if they come out with yogurt for men. Different yogurt.

Rachel: Like bodybuilder yogurt?

Joel: Yeah, it doesn’t really matter, but it’s… I mean, how can you change yogurt? I mean, I guess add protein.

Jamie: More protein.

Rachel: I mean that’s… I remember seeing the commercial for it. I mean, and it was, this guy working out and then he was having a yogurt. I mean, they were trying to appeal to him.

Joel: Yeah. Wait, so hold on. That’s something that we can touch on. Whenever you go and buy something, and we’ve all been there where we have to go and buy something and it’s a little bit embarrassing. I don’t know what the product is, but are you just like, “Man, I don’t want people seeing what I’m buying.” Some people are more self conscious about… I go to the selfy helpys because it’s faster, but some people go to the selfy helpys because they buy embarrassing things. Do you ever think the packaging can be changed to help with that?

Rachel: Yes.

Jill: Have less on it.

Rachel: Don’t make the-

Jill: Have the brand name, that’s it.

Jamie: Like for your foot odor problems?

Joel: Yeah. I don’t know. I’m trying to think of… I don’t know. There’s all kinds of personal products.

Rachel: Remember when you first started buying tampons?

Joel: Yeah, I was going to bring that up, but yeah, stuff like that. What if those types of products were branded in a more [crosstalk 00:36:43]-

Rachel: You just have to-

Jill: Subtle way.

Joel: Yeah.

Rachel: You just have to make the name of the product-

Jill: Giant-

Rachel: … smaller-

Jill: They know what it is.

Rachel: You just have to make it smaller-

Jill: Be proud. Don’t be ashamed.

Joel: Well, I mean it’s a natural thing in life.

Rachel: Or if you’re buying adult diapers or something.

Jamie: You can’t hide those things. Giant packages.

Joel: Because the package is huge-

Jamie: And the picture-

Rachel: The picture of a person wearing an adult diaper. I mean come on, make it a little more subtle. Yeah, because I’ve seen them in that aisle.

Jill: It’s [crosstalk 00:37:16] commercial where you can order online in a discreet box [crosstalk 00:37:20].

Joel: Right, that’s definitely an Amazon purchase. Comes in the box-

Jill: Joel’s planning for the future.

Joel: That’s right. Yeah. Well, I don’t really buy anything embarrassing that I can think of on a normal.

Jill: Well, I could think of a few things, but-

Rachel: I can too.

Jill: But then-

Joel: There was one time where I had to buy… For skin infections on animals, which one of our dogs has a lot of them. What is it? [inaudible 00:37:50]? I don’t remember what the formula is, but basically it’s like Vagisil. That’s what it is.

Rachel: I can see [crosstalk 00:38:00]-

Joel: That helps clear up the skin infection on the dog, and I had to go and buy it. Of course none of the selfy helpys were open. I’m like, “Should I go and buy a more expensive item, like a box of some kind and put this in the box?” I don’t even know how to… I just did not want to be checking out with that item, and this is like five years ago. I’m just like, “Oh my God, this is embarrassing.” Because I know the lady was looking at me like, “Hmm, what’s going on here?” Yeah.

Rachel: Well, I mean, you were buying it so she probably thought you were being a good husband.

Joel: Maybe, or she thought I was just a weirdo.

Rachel: Either way, who cares?

Joel: I know, I know, but that’s the only time I can think of in recent history where I’m like, “Man, I wish this wasn’t packaged-”

Jill: I’ve sent Joe to buy some pretty embarrassing things for me after I had the kids and I couldn’t move. I had my list and he went and got them, and sorry.

Joel: The funny thing is, I think, at least, the way I’ve always handled it, I’ll try to crack a joke and make it probably more awkward than it actually needs to be, but at least it makes me feel more at ease. But yeah, I mean, I think every guy has been in that situation where he has to buy something for his wife or girlfriend or whatever. All right. Well, can packaging reflect the quality of the product? We’ll get off the embarrassing product talk.

Jill: Definitely.

Rachel: Yeah.

Joel: The quality of the product, I mean, if we’re talking something cheap, packaging is probably going to be pretty minimal, right?

Rachel: Yeah. I mean, think about whenever you go to the dollar store, I mean, that’s cheap packaging.

Joel: Oh, very cheap.

Rachel: Yeah, and you can-

Joel: Barely there.

Rachel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Barely there.

Jill: Sometimes less is more.

Joel: That’s true. Yeah.

Jill: Most stuff in there comes with a little tag or a sticker, and it’s out in the open. But that’s why you’re not paying so much for it.

Rachel: Yeah. Think about fragrance packaging. They always do really good to showcase-

Jill: You’re spending a lot.

Rachel: Yeah. Fragrances are pretty expensive.

Joel: Smelling water essentially.

Rachel: But they do a good job of… I mean, first of all the bottle-

Jill: Making it feel worth it.

Rachel: Yeah. The bottle is usually really nice and then they do a good job of showcasing that bottle.

Jill: Yeah. Well, because the bottle sits there for a long time. Unless you douse yourself in perfume every day, you’re going to have it for a few years.

Joel: But also, they have to do that because they have to justify the fact that the liquid inside only costs like a penny.

Rachel: Exactly.

Joel: Something has to cost a lot to charge $50 for a bottle.

Rachel: Yeah, because I actually just bought some really nice perfume and the packaging was really nice. They made it look like a book-

Jill: What was it?

Rachel: Tocca Maya, and it wasn’t even the full size one. It was just the middle size one. They put it in this thing, so when you open it up it’s like a book and it even had a magnetic closure, and it was purple, and it had this scrolly stuff. It even had foil. I mean it was gorgeous. I mean they did-

Jill: You felt all right about spending how much-

Rachel: Oh yeah.

Jill: How much is it?

Rachel: For the middle size version it was like 40 bucks. Yeah. It was-

Joel: For scented water, essentially.

Rachel: Hey whatever. I love my [crosstalk 00:41:26]-

Joel: No, no. I know-

Jill: The signature scent.

Joel: I know but it’s… I mean deodorant I’m sure doesn’t cost all that much to actually produce, but they put it in really nice tubes and packaging.

Jill: Oh, that reminds me. Have you seen-

Rachel: Yeah, what’s going on with deodorant?

Jill: Target are, again Target. They have this new product that’s like a refillable deodorant.

Rachel: Really? I was just going to say, what if deodorant came in a tub [crosstalk 00:41:52]-

Jill: It’s like a plastic holder thing and then you just buy the inserts-

Joel: Topical ointment.

Rachel: That would be a great idea.

Jill: … to cut back on the packaging.

Rachel: That would be a great idea.

Jill: You just stick your little stick back in when you’re done and you just keep using. I mean, I don’t know what the stick itself comes in. Probably-

Rachel: I’m surprised they haven’t done that sooner. Because you think about mechanical pencils. I mean it’s like the same thing, right?

Jill: Oh yeah. Refilling those lead [crosstalk 00:42:17].

Rachel: Yeah.

Jamie: Get those [crosstalk 00:42:18]-

Rachel: Deodorant [inaudible 00:42:18].

Joel: But are the refills cheaper? Because you’re not…

Jill: I don’t know. I think it’s more about the environmental aspect. That’s who they’re targeting, which is a big thing these days.

Joel: Yeah, I know. I mean-

Jill: People are trying to go plastic free and I read about some celeb, I think it’s Anne Hathaway. She’s gone-

Rachel: She would.

Jill: She’s gone totally plastic free. She-

Joel: How?

Jill: I don’t even know how, I guess they just reuse. They’re just trying to really minimize their trash output.

Joel: What are they? I mean-

Jill: Reusable everything.

Joel: Well, they probably don’t drink milk. I was going to say-

Jill: I don’t know.

Joel: What are they getting their milk in?

Jill: They probably have a cow.

Joel: Just get it out the pail and…

Rachel: Oh no. For the longest time me and Erin only got the milk that came in the carton. All of a sudden our [inaudible 00:43:12] stopped carrying it, and he was so pissed-

Jill: Well, maybe [crosstalk 00:43:14] does that delivery like Oberweis does in the glass jar-

Joel: Oh that’s [crosstalk 00:43:19]-

Rachel: Do they still do that.

Jill: Yeah.

Joel: Oh yeah. Oberweis. It’s probably really expensive but-

Jill: You just return your glass jars and then they deliver your next batch.

Rachel: That’s so cool.

Jill: Yeah. That’s probably what Anne’s doing.

Rachel: Probably. Oh you’re right. I would not even put it past her to get a damn cow.

Jill: But there’s even stuff about like your toothbrush, oh, toothpaste.

Rachel: Toothpaste, yeah.

Jill: Bar toothpaste.

Rachel: Or those charcoal tabs-

Joel: [crosstalk 00:43:43]-

Rachel: Or those tabs-

Jill: Yeah, it’s like little tablets of toothpaste. So you don’t have the tube because I don’t know. I guess you can’t recycle the tube?

Joel: I don’t know [crosstalk 00:43:51]-

Rachel: Yeah, I [crosstalk 00:43:51]-

Jill: Not sure.

Joel: [crosstalk 00:43:52]. I don’t know.

Rachel: Oh, do you?

Joel: I do.

Jill: But there’s all these things now and people… I think it’s getting to be a competition of how much of little trash you put out. I think that’s… people are getting into that, but maybe not so much for the environment, but just to be like, “Hey, I threw away four things this week. What did you do?” “I composted up my apples [inaudible 00:44:17].”

Joel: Here’s the better question. “How are you getting to movie sets?” That’s what I’d ask her. “How do you get to movie sets?”

Jill: She probably bikes.

Joel: She bikes across the world to go shoot movies and stuff?

Rachel: What about her… I’m sure she has a private plane.

Joel: Well, even if she doesn’t-

Rachel: Probably not.

Joel: … it’s like-

Jill: She probably rode her own boat.

Joel: Yeah. Yeah.

Jill: Or paddled her own…

Joel: “All right. We’re shooting in London. All right. I need five weeks to get there because I got to row [inaudible 00:44:45].”

Jill: I don’t think it’s necessarily as crazy as that, but maybe she’s taking public transportation around town. I don’t know. We should all go look up Anne Hathaway after… It annoyed me when I was reading the whole thing, but… More because it makes you just feel bad about everything you trash and driving your one person car to work.

Joel: Right. All right, well, anybody got anything else about packaging?

Jill: Or Anne Hathaway?

Joel: Or Anne Hathaway? Either or.

Jill: I got nothing else.

Joel: You got nothing else?

Jill: Yeah.

Joel: Rachel?

Rachel: Nothing else.

Joel: All right. You’re going to start getting some stickers on some packaging?

Rachel: I think so.

Joel: It’s your branding. Come on.

Rachel: I know, but it costs money.

Joel: I know.

Jill: [crosstalk 00:45:32].

Rachel: Here’s my old address on [inaudible 00:45:34].

Jill: I had a [inaudible 00:45:35].

Joel: Yeah, Jamie-

Rachel: I didn’t cover that up.

Jamie: I’m good.

Joel: Jamie.

Jamie: I’m good.

Joel: You’re good? All right. Well, hey, I guess we’ll be right back with this. We can’t let it go.

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